Does Star Wars = Rocky?

The 'Xir

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This obviously is a question for everyone but more so for us older fans.

This past weekend there was a rocky marathon like there is many weekends of the year, and I haven't watched these movies in awhile, but I took in the first 3 and fortunately had to get to the bank before IV started. ;) However, as I watched them, it got me thinking about how, as everyone over the age of 35 but prob more like 40 knows, as we grew up with these movies for 15 years and more and more of them came out, 1) the quality of the films diminished, and 2) they started to become a punchline, because as a lot of spoof movies or comedies often suggested with either old men in boxer trunks or titles labeled Rocky 22 or Rocky 67 movie posters, how many more of these thing can there be? Beause, for the next 16 years after Rocky 5 came out, we kind of forgot about all the jokes and cheesiness of that franchise, but then Rocky Balboa came out in 2006 (remember there was a 16 year gap between RotJ & TPM)and now we have Creed, so how many more are we gonna have?

Now, despite the fact that I didn't like how George handled the prequels and, although I enjoyed it, TFA was pretty much just a rip-off of ANH; Im still a huge Star Wars fan, love the Star Wars Franchise and most of the movies, and can't wait for all the new ones to come out! Its just disconcerting to me that i'm even now starting to think about or draw these similar comparisons between the Rocky movies and Star Wars movies... so are they? Is Star Wars becoming the next Rocky, or JAWS for that matter, or any other franchise that wore out its welcome?

Now I understand, there is a huge difference between Star Wars and these other franchises, cause how many different outcomes can you really have to a boxing match, or a shark attack? However because George laid the foundation for his storytelling style of 'Tone Poems', we have now had 4 battles/wars(I, II, III, IV) 4 light saber battles(I, II, III, V), and 3 Death Stars(IV, VI, VII), just as Han quipped, "So it's Bigger"? With Disney now in control of the franchise, and we see whats become of the Marvel Universe, so we have to assume the eventuality of sucking every last bit of profit out of the name Star Wars, does anyone else fear that one day Star Wars will just become as stale as month old bread? I think I'm starting to join the camp that once VIII and IX are over, so too should be the Skywalker legacy!

Its a vast universe and in order to keep it fresh, I think wildly creative stories that are centered around non Skywalker events must be told both in the years BBY and ABY. Personally, one thing I hope Disney salvages from the old EU, is all the old stories 3000-5000BBY during the Old Republic and The Sith Empire like Tales of the Jedi, and all the Ulic Qel Droma/Exar Kuhn story Arcs. The Classical art and renaissance feel of those stories would transfer extremely well to the Big Screen IMO.

So long questions shortened(too late I know), Has Star Wars become stale yet or is it starting to, to anyone? and if so 2) What would you like to see done or whats the best way Disney can keep it all fresh? LMK :nerv:

MTFBWY ALL... Always! The 'Xir :)
 

Bel-Cam Jos

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I can see your point, 'Xir, but the expanse of locales and characters in the SW universe means its "freshness date" will last much longer than Rocky, Jaws, Friday the 13th, even James Bond. Now, hearing that Avatar will have sequels concerns me, since it's a sort-of-sci-fi movie, but I can't see its "mythos" lasting much longer. Putting any movie series in a place different than modern Earth gives it an advantage in staying power.
 

bigbarada

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Rocky is a different kind of franchise, because it's really all about one guy. It started to become a joke because a real person's boxing career is not all that long. By the time the fighter is in his 30s he's already starting to be seen as over the hill. They seem to be trying to expand the franchise into multiple generations, but who knows if that will be successful or not.

Plus, the Rocky sequels were a direct result of the success of the first Rocky film. Something of the same could be said for Star Wars, however, George Lucas was claiming that he intended to make 12 Star Wars films as early as 1977. So the idea of a series of films was introduced in Star Wars much earlier on. And we all know that his original drafts for Star Wars were too big for one film, so he had to save certain ideas for later films and just hope that Star Wars would be successful enough for those films to be made.

Star Wars itself is a multi-generational story that really is unlimited in storytelling potential. Ultimately, Rocky started out as one guy's boxing career and has turned into the story of one guy's life. Once Sylvester Stallone passes on, that's the end of the Rocky franchise.
 

bigbarada

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Now, despite the fact that I didn't like how George handled the prequels and, although I enjoyed it, TFA was pretty much just a rip-off of ANH;
It's no more of a rip off of SW than ROTJ was. Even as a 10-year-old kid, the overt similarities between Star Wars and Return of the Jedi were blatantly apparent to me. And the end of TPM was basically a rip off of ROTJ, only on four fronts instead of just three. So George started repeating himself pretty early on. TFA just continues that tradition.
 

JediTricks

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ROTJ is a ripoff of Star Wars because Star Wars ripped off ROTJ's ending in the writing process when Lucas realized he couldn't make the OT as a single movie, and wasn't sure he'd get to make sequels, wanted the first one to end with a bang.

It didn't help that he made the palace so obviously a ripoff of the cantina though.


Anyway, no, Star Wars isn't Rocky. The OT main story was laid out before a single frame was shot, and the PT framework was laid out there as well with the intention of not actually filming that, just using it as a writing tool. Rocky sequels have all missed the point of the first movie's heart, it's obvious they weren't really thought about.
 

bigbarada

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ROTJ is a ripoff of Star Wars because Star Wars ripped off ROTJ's ending in the writing process when Lucas realized he couldn't make the OT as a single movie, and wasn't sure he'd get to make sequels, wanted the first one to end with a bang.
In a way, I kind of miss those days when movie franchises weren't a foregone conclusion and each film had to stand alone on its own merits and didn't just exist to set up the next film in the series. Unfortunately, I feel like the Marvel movies are getting to a point where the long game storytelling has become more important than making each individual film a satisfying experience in and of itself. Avengers: Age of Ultron was a fun movie, but didn't really have much impact because the filmmakers clearly had their eyes on Civil War and Infinity War, and couldn't be bothered to take the time to make Ultron seem like a competent, imposing villain.

I haven't seen BvS yet, but the criticisms I've heard for that movie center around the same problem. They were more concerned with setting up the Justice League movie than with telling a complete, self-contained and satisfying story.

I think if the original Star Wars trilogy were being made today, the Death Star battle at the end of ANH wouldn't exist. The film would have ended with our heroes escaping the Death Star, cut to credits, and then lead right into the Rebels hiding out on Hoth in ESB.
 

Bel-Cam Jos

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No.

C-3PO never wished Paulie a happy birthday.
"And you said it was pretty."
"Thank the maker!"
"I can see you're serving drinks."
"Exciting is hardly the word I would use." [because it's not positive enough of a word!]
"And R2 expresses his relief as well."
"With all we've been through."
"Oh, I say. Were you looking for us?"
"I knew you could do it!"
"He agrees!"
"It's much too rocky."
"Shutting up, sir."

Those are all well wishes, right? :rolleyes:
 

The 'Xir

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Star Wars itself is a multi-generational story that really is unlimited in storytelling potential. Ultimately, Rocky started out as one guy's boxing career and has turned into the story of one guy's life. Once Sylvester Stallone passes on, that's the end of the Rocky franchise.
Think the themes of the Orig Rocky are whats generational,(Underdog w/no resources(poor), never giving up to overcome the odds w/Heart, Grit & Love)and so can be duplicated with Rocky, Creed or anyone if they choose to continue it.

They seem to be trying to expand the franchise into multiple generations, but who knows if that will be successful or not.
Think u answered urself by contradicting urself! lol Now if Creed and any offshoots become successful, will prob b the determining factor if the franchise survives.

Sidenote:
I haven't seen BvS yet, but the criticisms I've heard for that movie center around the same problem. They were more concerned with setting up the Justice League movie than with telling a complete, self-contained and satisfying story.
The Setting up Justice League aspect maybe true, but without giving away too much, it really's just a sequel to 'Man of Steel' anyways and starts where that left off with the help of a little flashback. The "set up" is very layered so if ur a die hard fanboy there's lots to take in, and an abundance of comicbook history easter eggs, along with some obvious ones. If ur not tho, you'll just be clueless to a lot of the easter egg references anyways, but it has no bearing on the simple story focusing on BvsS! Yeah like all films, there were some things they could have done better but overall I liked it! It was cool, kickass, popcorn fun!) I'm more a DC guy than Marvel tho, so I may be a lil biased! ;) :thumbsup:
 

The 'Xir

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Sidenote 2 ;) ..:
The film would have ended with our heroes escaping the Death Star, cut to credits, and then lead right into the Rebels hiding out on Hoth in ESB.
So u think the original ending was Vader and Ben fighting?
Don't remember if Lucas ever talked about what he intended as the original ending of that part of the story b4 he decided to chop it up and bring the Death Star into it like JT mentioned. If it was tho, than alot would of had to have changed. Luke & Hans fight about "guess its what your best at" would of happened a lot sooner and been about a completely different mission. So Luke would have to deliver the plans to Alderann, get caught by the tractor beam and rescue the princess tech by himself, while Bens role at end would be the same(tractor bean(to free whatever ship they arrived in)/Vader). Rebels woulda had to have sent armada(xwings) to rescue Luke & Princess, and in the chaos Luke, Leia and the droids flee DS, Vader and a squadron of Ties pursue them. The fleet countdowns a hyperspace jump back to the safety of Yavin but as the nav computer counts down, Vader closes in on Luke and knows, "I have you now" before he can make the jump, just so Han can Swoop in outta the blue to save the day,(just as it is in ANH except allowing the escape, than blowing up the DS) to keep the friendship aspect of the story! :ermm: Interesting.
 

bigbarada

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Think u answered urself by contradicting urself! lol Now if Creed and any offshoots become successful, will prob b the determining factor if the franchise survives.
Don't see what's contradictory at all. The Rocky franchise is about a boxer named Rocky, played by Sylvester Stallone. Once Sylvester Stallone dies it's over unless they can somehow reinvent the franchise to be multi-generational. Whether or not they are successful in reinventing it is still yet to be seen.

It's always been one thing and they are trying to make it into something else to justify making more movies. So where's the contradiction?

Sidenote 2 ;) ..:

So u think the original ending was Vader and Ben fighting?
The end of the film would be escaping the Death Star. George Lucas had to beg the studio for more money to complete the Death Star battle in ANH and they didn't really understand why it needed to be in the film. In their mind, the heroes had rescued the princess and escaped the enemy fortress, so the story was over.

Obviously, that would have changed the entire dynamic of ESB if the Death Star was still around during that film and it's likely that Han wouldn't have started to redeem himself until much later in the franchise.
 

The 'Xir

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It's always been one thing and they are trying to make it into something else to justify making more movies. So where's the contradiction?
It was just a humorous observation. No serious debate needed, I was just F'n w/ya cuz ur statements did kinda contradict themselves just by their very nature. Just as your statement above summarizes that notion. When you argue for/that Rocky was self contained(non-generational) but then admit that they're trying to make it generational(no matter the reason) the latter automatically cancels/"Contradicts" the previous. Just thought it was funny you pretty much answered your own question. :)

Afterall, Rocky as a trainer is now passing down his knowledge to the next generation, so it kinda is generational now! So we'll see cuz only continued success will determine HOW generational it will be. Trust me If Hollywood can milk a property to death they will, so even when Stallone dies the rights will be sold off or leased from his estate, so some management/entertainment company can do just that... milk it! ;)

I heard Creed was really good.
Heard that too! Got a great bootleg of the movie, but haven't watched it yet(just checkd quality).